Say something about Ai

My Sounds,friend.
In discussion we will find ballance.As per me NO to AI is not the right step as soon everyone will find that music software which are in use are AI based or at least with AI data base.So I still thing that required clear regulations within Wikiloops .This will minimize effect of AI expansion which is definitely all over.I personally will follow internal regulations but at same time wish Wikiloops to not be an defensive site but modern site Wich will get more and more followers.Regarding professional or non professional musicians this is quite big discussion.Let simply state for people which are not making money and covering cost of living with music are non professional.There are mixing variants music for enjoyment and from time for time music for money.Big discussion indeed.

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As a drummer, it annoys me when "drummers" upload obviously quantized and programmed parts needing 3 arms to play. Still many like it. I purposely upload shit as a protest, both musically and otherwise.

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Krillo of course you are right but again all is part of compromise.Resently in one club famous guitarist used drum machine, looper and backing track files.People were happy.Why he don't play with band, because full band is expensive isn't it.

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My point was mainly 'where is the line drawn'. If you upload something altered, then label it "sequencer", because it is. Also, complaining on peoples uploads will become old real quick.

The issue is, as I see it, 'social media disease' where everyone is trying to outdo everyone else. It stops being about art, and becomes competition instead. That said, the whole process of wikiloops is a problem, as I've said before (and was not understood).

I don't think AI is the main issue, but pretending to be something you're not. Just write in your upload that you faked it.

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Long discussion.... yes using side files without notifying rest is an issue. In many countries if you use AI for anything you should put mark- AI. If you are using sound files with no copyright issue and modifying same this should be ok but notification should be there. If you are using electronic pad with variation of sound there is it this issue? If you use recording software with various plugins is it this issue? But again and again all depends of Wikiloops rules and requirements .

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I think using Ai without telling anyone is cheating and if you tell everyone in the description, it's still cheating. I think VSTs and hardware guitar pedals to enhance your sound are fine .. it's still you uploading. Ai not so much. In reality, I think it's a scourge designed to take our humanity out of the equation. It's garbage but a great new toy for lazy people and non musicians. More entertainment for the masses to put us to sleep. It just too easy. Play with it on your own time but don't upload it here. No one is impressed .. well some are, the ones who fall for it and we probably all have at times. LOL

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I myself don’t like the slick soulless tracks of music that are AI. I like authentic musicians who play from the heart even if their skills aren’t quite developed yet. (Myself included) A few “wrong “ notes and mistakes are still genuinely authentic musicians doing their best effort!

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AI is moving too fast for my taste. What I actually need is one willing to explain guitar chords with the patience of a saint—because expecting that from a human teacher would border on cruel and unusual punishment.
As for whether AI bots bother me with music uploads here on WL: we all play poorly enough that you can tell instantly, thankfully. Suits me just fine.

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haha ... :D:D

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i like my music like i like my women...all natural :)

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Thank god my music can never be confused as AI. I knew there was a reason for my bad musicianship 😂😂😂😂

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Is it AI or not? Take the example of Pat Metheny’s "Orchestrion" video—which I think is fantastic: the MIDI programming was done entirely by Metheny and then mechanically transmitted to real instruments like drums, vibraphone, and so on.
Is that AI? Yes and no.
That’s somewhat what’s happening right now, though it’s not being transmitted to real instruments but rather to technology that goes far beyond anything we’ve seen before—things like VSTs, samples, BiaB, etc.
Let’s be realistic: I’ve been using WL for nearly 10 years... if I see "sequencer" in the track descriptions—like drum loops—that’s fine by me. If it isn’t mentioned and I happen to notice it, it’s no big deal; we’re here to have fun, after all... we don’t have anything to sell on Spotify or anywhere else.
Another thing—though maybe it's off-topic—is when I see a violin icon for a track's instrument (or a sax, cello, etc.) but realize it was played via a MIDI keyboard; I find myself thinking, "It doesn't sound natural." But hey, it doesn't really matter; we're used to that sort of thing.
Anyway, I haven't exactly moved the debate forward, but I just wanted to share a few thoughts. :D[youtube]uPOqwisIy5g[/youtube]

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Great..so let's be natural,creative but in line with today's world and technologies.

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Maybe it's time to ask ourselves what it is to be human. How have we manifested ourselves and developed a culture over thousands of years. Music is a big part of that culture and is likely to have been the first expression that stepped beyond the necessities of food and shelter.

I'm a part of that culture that I don't wish to give it over to technology. Not every technological development is a step forward, especially when the only motive is money. The technology is being sold to companies and individuals so that people can be replaced in the arts by flashy banality.

Some of us don't see that as a part of human culture. It is not a destiny that we wish to share simply because it is new. It is not inevitable unless those of us here let it become inevitable.

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Rant 2026

I`m not the benchmark, I don`t make rules for others and I can happily accept that others live by different rules and values. I just ask that my territory where my rules apply is respected.

To my mind, this is what this whole discussion is all about.

Someone who orders a meal in a restaurant does not become the chef du jour just because he eats what he ordered.

Likewise, you can not be a musician by proxy.

If I called up Nick and told him that I`d like a rock song with 2 distinct guitar riffs and lyrics that praise the beauty of having sex with while under the influence and Nick delivered a track it might make me seem like a wierd freak but it certainly doesn`t make me the musician.

But maybe I`m weak and I really believe that the track is my doing and Nick was just the guy executing my input. Fine. Just keep the result to yourself. Don`t publish it, don`t brag about it. Keep your weakness and inabilities private. You are not entilted to be a musician. Just like I`m not entitled to be Freddie Mercury no matter how much I`d enjoy performing on stage. Some things are not meant to be. I could dream but dreams are fiction and not fact.

Likewise, I don`t want to be on the receiving end of fake stuff, especially if it`s well faked, because at the end of the day I could fake it myself just as easily and then some.

That`s my set of rules regarding fake musicianship.

Then there`s the question if this makes me anti-AI. Actually AI is great when it helps with cancer research and astronomy. But I don`t feel that AI actors will improve my movie experience or that Suno will help me become more proficient with my keyboard playing. Sometimes, the journey is just as important as reaching your destination. Acquiring musical skills is the name of the game. (Come to think of it, there are strong parallels between music and sex, I should write a paper on that)

Next: Midi et al
For years I`ve avoided recording keyboard - especially piano - parts in Midi. I`d rather spend my time practicing my parts until I get the timing and intonation right than later putting mouse to midi notes and correcting them. There are exceptions of course. Midi lets me create my own arpeggios, allows me to dial in modulation and aftertouch effects to my synth tracks and lets me create new sounds. Is any of this fake? No, I still play each and every note myself.

Do I quantize my tracks? I just couldn`t be bothered. Practice until you get the timing right. Anyway, it would sound sterile if everything was quantized and then what? Apply the humanize plugin to put in some random millisecond shifts? That`s you as a human using a machine to make you sound ... human. Just because it can be done doesn`t mean you need to do it.

Now, I have no idea how prevalent AI actually is on Wikiloops. But I do know that while a member may point out that he/she/it used AI to a certain extent would be a sign of honesty it wouldn`t be enough to keep the "musical gene pool" clean. The shit we upload (I mean this in the best possible way) will be used on other tracks at some future point in time and bang the AI part finds its way into a new life. So lets make sure that the fun we have here is based on good shit only.

Like I said, I don`t make the rules. But I do reserve the right to decide whose tracks I want to have fun with.

Which brings me to rules and regulations. You can write down whatever rules you like but rules will fail if a) people ignore them or b) they can`t be enforced. I don`t think that Wikiloops will ever be the place where activities get monitored (nor should it be) so that just leaves everyone to decide for themselves which other Wikiloops musicians to trust.

And that Ladies and Gentleman concludes my annual rant for 2026.

Normal services will now resume and I`ll consider any application for fieldtesting my hypothesis on the relationship between music and sex.

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[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExaHd1aDJibmZtcGQwcmU3bGRhbWd5aWp0ZmRtb2Y0YzFqeDVuejN3YSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/dlxZ5qZs91Kx2/giphy.gif[/img]

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Read today that someone claimed AI is dangerous and we ought to start reserving jobs for humans.

Never heard the phrase "reserving job's for humans" before, but I like it. Feels like the right direction. Like putting a few specimens in a zoo so the endangered species doesn't completely die out. That way, we can look forward to having someone reserve us humans a job, reserve us a little cot, a kitchen time slot, a few more Wikiloops uploads.

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So many others have checked in here, I guess I'll share some of today's thoughts.

Nobody complained when I used Superior Drummer to add drums to their tracks, then applied live bass performance. It's demo work, it gives an idea of what was in my head, frankly - I sold my drum set some years back because the neighbors could theoretically hear the banging. Superior Drummer is not human, it's human programed, beat to beat, note to note, and often, mistake to mistake, but hey, it's what it is, a beat to play to.

Now, this AI business. You aren't programming it when you type in a prompt and say "Give me an 80's rock tune, or a jazz trio." You aren't controlling it when you type lyrics in it and say sing these like Anita Baker. You are literally getting songs already written, minorly adjusted, and redistributed as "original works."

The Beatles wrote every conceivable 4-chord arrangement ever recorded, so you're always ripping off the Beatles, no matter what you play, but AI is literally ripping actual song mathematics and giving it back. Zero originality.

I value that I can take the hundreds of 80's cassette tape demos I have and digitize them, put them into Suno and get back something that is 90 percent close to the original, so I can say to someone - "Here's a listen, put your stink on it and lets record the track. It goes like this...." TOTAL value there. Not having to try and lay down a demo so I can get someone else to lay down a demo so we can get into the studio or on stage with it. It has saved me countless hours of trying to make a guitar riff sound like the guys I played with decades ago (shit, I can't play what Nuno laid down in 1985). I personally can't do it on a guitar. I'll bass the fuck out of whatever you've got, but not guitar. AI has helped with preserving some works that would have become tape dust in years gone by.

Now the idea that people upload full songs that are either "mastered" by AI or written by AI - for me, this isn't the place for it. Wikiloops came about long before this AI revolution, and celebrates the community, (though often the lack of community), where people can play together, and you can hear other's takes on something you recorded, and hopefully celebrate one another whether one version was plausible or not - celebrate the love for playing and inspire one another to simply feel the love for the art form, and enhance it. Love more, play more, feel more, share more. Community.

AI isn't dong that here, and from my perspective, if we can leave it off Wikiloops I'd be just happy with that. I'll continue to use Superior Drummer for knocking out drums until peter gets his hands on the track, that Superior Drummer can sit back down.

I feel wholeheartedly for Dick and what he's made, and how the modern non-musician is heralding all this attention for borrowing of AI to make the song that will be forgotten tomorrow. Dick made a place where you can create a sound that will be a memory for yourself for a lifetime. I often think of what was going on in my world when I hear something I played on with Rootshell, or talked with Ernie about or heard someone else discover Alice's tracks and played to them. Everyone's got a moment they felt invincible, or rescued, or that they were part of something where they were readily accepted. Remember when people used to accept people here, their thoughts, ideas and goals? I know, a thing of the past, but Dick made this - he put his dollars where his ideas were and he brought us all here. AI doesn't play to the community, it's like mice fighting for the same crumb. Wikiloops is the circle around the campfire. I just don't think AI belongs here. It definitely belongs, and has it's uses - but my perspective says, Wikiloops doesn't need it. Ultimately, after a decade and a half, it will mark a moment historically in many people's lives. many people i would welcome the opportunity to meet over a real cup of coffee - though the Wiki-cart is a nice thought, but I genuinely look daily on Wikiloops for the humanity, not the generated creations. What someone wrote, why they felt that way when they wrote it, recorded it and had the bravery to share it to theoretical strangers.

Share an AI generated track and people hate it, it means nothing to you and you don't care if they hate it, you didn't make it. However, share a few chords that talk about your fears, or pain, and even one person says "Wow, that moved me." - your world changes. That's Wikiloops, and it's something AI has no business in.

I can continue to ramble, my peace has been spoken from my heart. I feel AI has it's place. I love what Dick has created here, I feel personally, AI doesn't fit into it. ~ Joe

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How I see it.

Personally, I believe that in a discussion like this, different aspects and points of view should be kept separate. Putting them all together doesn't help understanding.

For example, there's the perspective of someone who plays an instrument. They hear its sound, the player's skill, its soul. And they express their opinions from this.

There are those who listen to the harmony, the singing, sometimes the lyrics, and evaluate the whole. A single instrument is one thing, the entire piece is another.

There are many components in the production phase: recording, editing, mixing, mastering. Each phase uses some form of technology. It's increasingly advanced, increasingly "humanized." From real acoustic sounds processed by microphones and preamps, to synthetic sounds, to sampled sounds (real but expressed by machines), all via MIDI. Editing, which puts the sounds "in time," adjusts their volumes and intonations (even of vocals). Mixing, which creates the sonic environment from panning to reverb and other effects, sometimes adding extraneous sounds, reproducing old-fashioned or futuristic environments. Mastering, which levels the sonic impact and prepares the final performance. The entire piece, the entire performance—human, digital, or a mix of the two—changes greatly depending on compression, filters, equalization, etc. Those who work on these things are called "engineers" and are even awarded internationally. And we're not yet in AI.

But where is the "music"? Well... it's always there, in the rhythm, in the expressiveness, in the arrangement, in the melody. In what is called "art."

I remember when, in photography, the spread of smartphones, with the ability to take technically more perfect photos than film, made people think that photography as an art form was over. Anyone could take great photographs. Well... that didn't happen. Artistic photography is absolutely not over. Everyone continues to be able to distinguish, just by looking, a banal "shot" from one containing art. Because the difference lies in the "intrinsic message" the photo expresses, the difference lies in what "resonates with you." Do you know the difference between a photo of a "beautiful child" and a "beautiful photo" of a child? There you go...

After all, even the individual performer (instrumentalist) has his own problems. There are those who think that putting 100 notes in a bar is synonymous with a good musician, when in fact most of the time it's just gymnastics. And they don't understand why the other, who only put two or three, is appreciated more. Because putting just two or three "correct and musical" notes in the void is far more difficult than making noise.

Is an orchestra conductor a musician?
In reality, he doesn't play anything. He plays 100-year-old musical scores (always the same ones) to which he has put nothing. And he has other people play them. Is he a musician who makes music?

Is there a difference between an orchestra made up of people, or one made up of sampled sounds (from real, human instrumentalists) directed by sequences of MIDI files, culminating in the most tender and sophisticated expressions? One might say, certainly! True. But the difference lies in "what you hear," not in how it was performed.

And if, instead of a 100-year-old score, there were a modern performance, the difference would be even more evident. But not everyone is Mozart or Tchaikovsky, not in how it was performed.

And what about AI?

It was preceded by the phenomenon of DJs who claimed to be "playing" and "making music." Many believed it and even tried to call them "artists."
Now we are faced with an artificial technology that is undoubtedly highly advanced, but absolutely not intelligent (at least in the way we understand intelligence). For many, it is astonishing. In reality, it does nothing but copy. It is said to "learn" but in reality it "records." What makes it "magical" is simply the enormous quantity of recordings (in all fields) it accumulates and the speed with which it can assemble, consult, compare, extract, and filter all the recordings (information) fed to it. And it does this by responding to the prompts it is given.
The point is that it can't "create" anything. It can't produce any result if it hasn't already been memorized. It doesn't "create," and therefore isn't capable of doing something completely new and "artistic," lacking what art expresses most of all: the human soul.

Therefore, I wouldn't worry too much about what AI can generate. I'm much more concerned with how ordinary people perceive it and how it can be used to "train" those same people.
On the other hand, the system (even in the music field) needs to generate a market and rapid "disposable" consumption, and that's exactly what it's doing. But it's very difficult, if not impossible, to call this stuff music.

And Wikiloops?

Well... It's a worldwide jam session... right?
It's up to its attendees to judge and distinguish the material that gets published.
Some do it from the perspective of the instrumentalist, some from the perspective of the song's development, some from both. I've often heard absolutely "dirty" and sometimes "wrong" (in my opinion) songs and seen them receive a lot of praise. Now, that's a guarantee! Because what's appreciated isn't the technique, but the musicality. That artistic touch the song contains and becomes a vehicle for emotion. And emotion is precisely that thing that's indisputable, individual, everyone "feels" in their own way. There can be no discussion about that.

What it's NOT is a place to show others how good you think you are. Some might even think of doing that, but generally, technique and gymnastics alone rarely convey anything.

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