Quo vadis Wikiloops
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Posts: 347
Joined: 19.03.2022
Hell, let`s not make this post about Wikiloops only but also about myself, so
QUO VADIS, MYSOUNDS?
Dick`s recent post (You will not believe...) has led me to pull up a file in which I wrote down some thoughts and ideas for Wikiloops when we were discussing the major 2025 release. Most of my ideas I didn`t share with the folks involved in the discussion as I didn`t want to input something I felt might pull Wikiloops too far away from its goals and from what Dick has always intended Wikiloops to be.
But there are a couple of thoughts I want to share that focus less on Wikiloops as a platform and meeting point and more on how we use it.
Youtube
Let`s start with the easy one: Wikiloops tracks on Youtube.
There are tons of Wikiloops tracks on YT and it speaks volumes about our community members that most tracks reference Wikiloops and the individual musicians in the YT descriptions. But if members do go that extra mile to create something on YT, it seems a pity that even other Wikiloops members rarely know anything about it or that the info only gets posted on the shoutbox and is lost after a couple of days. I know that Billy, Nick, Shamika, David, Joe and many others run their own channels but unlike the responses they get on Wikiloops, their YT-WL tracks seem to go largely unnoticed.
Maybe a centralized list on Wikiloops, even if it`s only a shared google docs file might make things easier? Or a “formal” YT playlist under a WL account where we could add all new releases??
More collaboration
Wikiloops is based on sequential adds, which is great. If you look at older tracks you`ll often see a complex tree structure where an initial idea is taken to lots of different directions. Each branch and each upload requires you to listen, to try to understand where a track is coming from and to find a way to change its direction or enhancing it. Great way to practice what to listen for and to develop your technical and playing ability.
But sometimes tracks are not only good for practice and adding quick ideas but are “valuable” simply as stand-alone tracks. Unfortunately, that requires collaboration which is far removed from “I`ve done my bit, the rest of WL can do what it likes with it”.
It may be just me, and I can well live with it being just me, but in times of plus 50% of Spotify releases being AI-generated, handmade music that is collaboratively tweaked to a certain level holds a special appeal for me.
Now, I have absolutely no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the Wikiloops band project world (apart from the fishy Herring collaboration and the brainless, sorry, headless horsemen thing), but I have this sneaking feeling that there are some members who would at least want to try out more collaborative approaches, not as a general rule but on occasional, selected ideas. But if our mindsets are only geared towards sequence instead of cooperation, sequence is what we get.
Looking over past forum posts, it is noticeable that posts of members looking to join or set up Wikiloops band projects have become as rare as a dodo. Are we too inward looking and focussing only on our own adds? Does how we use Wikiloops encourage thinking of uploads as adds instead of as contributions?
Again, this is not something that requires any changes to Wikiloops, but I just want to point out the possibilities and opportunities we already have in place but may have forgotten exist.
Third point concerns my own curiosity. I`ve done some unspeakable and occasionally some acceptable things to more than 600 tracks on Wikiloops, have had hundreds of mail exchanges with other members, had video calls and even had the pleasure of meeting members at the last Barnadise session. But for the life of me, I have absolutely no idea who all these people are, why they are on Wikiloops, what they are looking for, what drives them on … Not that I need to know any of this and indeed I am happy that Wikiloops does not provide for self-centered, polished and shiny self-presentation, but I do sometimes wonder what the musical DNA of a particular member is, to better understand what they played and why.
So, where does all that put me? (I did say it was about myself)
Yes, I would love to see and participate in the occasional collaborative deep-dive, taking existing tracks apart, re-arranging and re-recording them until the tracks mature to a level equal to what I`d love to hear on the radio instead of the standard playlist s*&t every commercial station seems to play nowadays. Is it going to happen by itself? No, but I think in future I might make the odd suggestion to Wikiloops members to maybe revisit a track and create something that mirrors a dream I may have had years ago, even in a limited scope.
Likewise, I`d love to see others collaborate more as I think joint efforts are so much more than the sum of individual inputs.
Although I don’t have a mapped out plan for how I want to use Wikiloops in future, the past months have been mostly spent taking Wikiloops tracks, experimenting with orchestral adds and creating snippets for movie soundtracks. The results are nothing much to shout about yet so there won`t be any uploads from that particular avenue but I have this feeling that it is helping me create more targeted keyboard adds to tracks instead of simply keybombing tracks from start to finish (not that I`ll stop doing that completely as I love doing sound carpets).
Another idea kicking around is a sort of Wikiloops podcast. I`ve done some demos discussing Wikiloops tracks and forum posts but it`s still far too unstructured and uneven to take this to a trial stage. Anyway, that would be one thing I`d have to discuss with Dick in much more detail. And again, absent a feeling for what a Wikilooper might like to hear, this could just as well remain an idea.
Btw, this idea originated from having to explain not only Wikiloops but also individual tracks to friends who don’t play music but like to listen to Wikiloop tracks. Yes, we do have outside listeners!
That being said, I love Wikiloops, the community, the interaction, the output and I wouldn’t want to change anything that moves it away from the purist goal of simply making music together with likeminded folks.
All this from a firm believer that what happens on Wikiloops is a necessary counterweight to current trends to preserve what music to my mind is all about: human, handmade creativity evoking emotional responses.
And now I need to get back to the new tea trolley TeeGEE is pushing around.
QUO VADIS, MYSOUNDS?
Dick`s recent post (You will not believe...) has led me to pull up a file in which I wrote down some thoughts and ideas for Wikiloops when we were discussing the major 2025 release. Most of my ideas I didn`t share with the folks involved in the discussion as I didn`t want to input something I felt might pull Wikiloops too far away from its goals and from what Dick has always intended Wikiloops to be.
But there are a couple of thoughts I want to share that focus less on Wikiloops as a platform and meeting point and more on how we use it.
Youtube
Let`s start with the easy one: Wikiloops tracks on Youtube.
There are tons of Wikiloops tracks on YT and it speaks volumes about our community members that most tracks reference Wikiloops and the individual musicians in the YT descriptions. But if members do go that extra mile to create something on YT, it seems a pity that even other Wikiloops members rarely know anything about it or that the info only gets posted on the shoutbox and is lost after a couple of days. I know that Billy, Nick, Shamika, David, Joe and many others run their own channels but unlike the responses they get on Wikiloops, their YT-WL tracks seem to go largely unnoticed.
Maybe a centralized list on Wikiloops, even if it`s only a shared google docs file might make things easier? Or a “formal” YT playlist under a WL account where we could add all new releases??
More collaboration
Wikiloops is based on sequential adds, which is great. If you look at older tracks you`ll often see a complex tree structure where an initial idea is taken to lots of different directions. Each branch and each upload requires you to listen, to try to understand where a track is coming from and to find a way to change its direction or enhancing it. Great way to practice what to listen for and to develop your technical and playing ability.
But sometimes tracks are not only good for practice and adding quick ideas but are “valuable” simply as stand-alone tracks. Unfortunately, that requires collaboration which is far removed from “I`ve done my bit, the rest of WL can do what it likes with it”.
It may be just me, and I can well live with it being just me, but in times of plus 50% of Spotify releases being AI-generated, handmade music that is collaboratively tweaked to a certain level holds a special appeal for me.
Now, I have absolutely no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the Wikiloops band project world (apart from the fishy Herring collaboration and the brainless, sorry, headless horsemen thing), but I have this sneaking feeling that there are some members who would at least want to try out more collaborative approaches, not as a general rule but on occasional, selected ideas. But if our mindsets are only geared towards sequence instead of cooperation, sequence is what we get.
Looking over past forum posts, it is noticeable that posts of members looking to join or set up Wikiloops band projects have become as rare as a dodo. Are we too inward looking and focussing only on our own adds? Does how we use Wikiloops encourage thinking of uploads as adds instead of as contributions?
Again, this is not something that requires any changes to Wikiloops, but I just want to point out the possibilities and opportunities we already have in place but may have forgotten exist.
Third point concerns my own curiosity. I`ve done some unspeakable and occasionally some acceptable things to more than 600 tracks on Wikiloops, have had hundreds of mail exchanges with other members, had video calls and even had the pleasure of meeting members at the last Barnadise session. But for the life of me, I have absolutely no idea who all these people are, why they are on Wikiloops, what they are looking for, what drives them on … Not that I need to know any of this and indeed I am happy that Wikiloops does not provide for self-centered, polished and shiny self-presentation, but I do sometimes wonder what the musical DNA of a particular member is, to better understand what they played and why.
So, where does all that put me? (I did say it was about myself)
Yes, I would love to see and participate in the occasional collaborative deep-dive, taking existing tracks apart, re-arranging and re-recording them until the tracks mature to a level equal to what I`d love to hear on the radio instead of the standard playlist s*&t every commercial station seems to play nowadays. Is it going to happen by itself? No, but I think in future I might make the odd suggestion to Wikiloops members to maybe revisit a track and create something that mirrors a dream I may have had years ago, even in a limited scope.
Likewise, I`d love to see others collaborate more as I think joint efforts are so much more than the sum of individual inputs.
Although I don’t have a mapped out plan for how I want to use Wikiloops in future, the past months have been mostly spent taking Wikiloops tracks, experimenting with orchestral adds and creating snippets for movie soundtracks. The results are nothing much to shout about yet so there won`t be any uploads from that particular avenue but I have this feeling that it is helping me create more targeted keyboard adds to tracks instead of simply keybombing tracks from start to finish (not that I`ll stop doing that completely as I love doing sound carpets).
Another idea kicking around is a sort of Wikiloops podcast. I`ve done some demos discussing Wikiloops tracks and forum posts but it`s still far too unstructured and uneven to take this to a trial stage. Anyway, that would be one thing I`d have to discuss with Dick in much more detail. And again, absent a feeling for what a Wikilooper might like to hear, this could just as well remain an idea.
Btw, this idea originated from having to explain not only Wikiloops but also individual tracks to friends who don’t play music but like to listen to Wikiloop tracks. Yes, we do have outside listeners!
That being said, I love Wikiloops, the community, the interaction, the output and I wouldn’t want to change anything that moves it away from the purist goal of simply making music together with likeminded folks.
All this from a firm believer that what happens on Wikiloops is a necessary counterweight to current trends to preserve what music to my mind is all about: human, handmade creativity evoking emotional responses.
And now I need to get back to the new tea trolley TeeGEE is pushing around.
+2
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Joined: 27.09.2014
:D expect a call from his majesty one day for some exploratory diving into the deep dark, murky and turbulent waters of Wikiloops math rock ocean :W
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SUPPORTER
Posts: 2980
Joined: 30.12.2010
criticism: no boobs or beer, no bold formatted parts either (I'm referencing the mentioned "You would not believe..." thread you are distracting the rare readers from here).
On a slightly more serious note - that YouTube situation is described well, and can be re-visited for sure. I believe I might have thought of any possible approach and decided to do nothing for a good reason, but you can always prove me wrong :) We can offer showcasing opportunities on wikiloops - that's basically what the forum thread for videos of wikiloopers does. We could try to collect contributions uploaded to YouTube in a playlist managed on the wikiloops YouTube account, so there is one central go-to place - that is a lot of work if not automated somehow, and would you like to curate the ones that might not be, you know, representative of what wikiloops stands for, visually (boobs anyone?)? And sure, you could open up the can of worms all the way and let people upload video to wikiloops, to then upload that to the wikiloops youtube account... again, who filters the content released under the wikiloops flag, and who deals with possible copyright strikes and all that jazz youtube has in store? oh, me the nay sayer at it again? darn. No, seriously, you need answers to these concerns if you want to jump into that puddle of sharks.
Podcasting and other showcasing ideas have less legal impact and are something one could just DO, to see what others say, if you want to talk about it, sure. I guess the last video collaboration experiment must have been before your time, I can tell you I've mostly felt the time investment is not backed by user interest in the end - no offense to anyone involved, look at the click rates of these collab videos today if you care. Not sure if any podcast format would exceed that...
Well, and for the collaboration approach you are advertising... yeah, no objection here, feel free to revive, role-model and pioneer whichever approach you have in mind, and a cluster of people will or will not surround you - if you do it publicly. That's one downside to the private bands - people do not see the possibly more serious collabs once they take place there.
On a slightly more serious note - that YouTube situation is described well, and can be re-visited for sure. I believe I might have thought of any possible approach and decided to do nothing for a good reason, but you can always prove me wrong :) We can offer showcasing opportunities on wikiloops - that's basically what the forum thread for videos of wikiloopers does. We could try to collect contributions uploaded to YouTube in a playlist managed on the wikiloops YouTube account, so there is one central go-to place - that is a lot of work if not automated somehow, and would you like to curate the ones that might not be, you know, representative of what wikiloops stands for, visually (boobs anyone?)? And sure, you could open up the can of worms all the way and let people upload video to wikiloops, to then upload that to the wikiloops youtube account... again, who filters the content released under the wikiloops flag, and who deals with possible copyright strikes and all that jazz youtube has in store? oh, me the nay sayer at it again? darn. No, seriously, you need answers to these concerns if you want to jump into that puddle of sharks.
Podcasting and other showcasing ideas have less legal impact and are something one could just DO, to see what others say, if you want to talk about it, sure. I guess the last video collaboration experiment must have been before your time, I can tell you I've mostly felt the time investment is not backed by user interest in the end - no offense to anyone involved, look at the click rates of these collab videos today if you care. Not sure if any podcast format would exceed that...
Well, and for the collaboration approach you are advertising... yeah, no objection here, feel free to revive, role-model and pioneer whichever approach you have in mind, and a cluster of people will or will not surround you - if you do it publicly. That's one downside to the private bands - people do not see the possibly more serious collabs once they take place there.
+1
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Posts: 549
Joined: 04.07.2020
I've thought of the podcast idea for some time now. In different formats, one being an actual podcast with a speaker, maybe in an interview format. Of course, that would take lots of production, setup and time. The other was more simpler. I commute to work, it's about a 45minute drive, often at times, I listen to Wikiloops while driving. The idea would be a 1hr podcast format/show you could stream of just pure music for the commuter, with maybe just an quick intro buffer. It could be genre-specific and just have a bunch of tracks all back to back for the listener. Again, less time to create, but still takes time to create haha. The problem is usually the listening platform. I use YT for streaming music, not sure many younger folks do. Spotify seems to be the platform of choice, but again, then you get into licensing and setting up some a distribution system (DistroKid, etc), which then questions who owns the music, etc...it gets complicated. Maybe one day, when I'm retired, I can try a few of these things. I'd really like to interview some people, because I always enjoy learning about people.
+1
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Posts: 549
Joined: 04.07.2020
if there was an automated way to get a track into some system, that would then publish it to some platform of choice...and it passed any legal checks and balances...then that would be a great system to make available to paid members or part of some membership plan. like at the diamond level, you get to select 1 track per quarter which will go into Wikiloops' quarterly published catalog of music, available for streaming on this platform. you get the idea...
+1
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